Carlos de Oliveira 0:00 You have to surround yourself with the right people, the right guidance, the right mentors, you need the right kind of investors, and it is not for the faint of heart, and it is not easy. Chris Yip 0:17 Welcome to Tell Me More: Coffee with Chris Yip, the official podcast of the Faculty of Applied Science & Engineering at the University of Toronto. Each month, I sit down with someone from our vibrant global community to talk about what places them at the heart of designing bold solutions for a better world. You'll meet alumni, students and professors who are making a difference across a range of fields, including some where you may not expect to find it. My guests today are U of T Engineering alumni, Michael Gray and Carlos de Oliviera, the Co-founders of Cast Connex, an industry leader in architectural and structural use of cast steel components in the design and construction of building and bridge structures. From supporting rebuilding efforts in Haiti following its devastating earthquake in 2010 to – and this is cool – making their mark on the Las Vegas skyline with a recently opened MSG Sphere at the Venetian, and we're going to be talking about this, Cast Connex is known for taking on very ambitious and meaningful projects. Michael is the Executive Vice President of Cast Connex. He received his Bachelor of Applied Science and his PhD from the Department of Civil and Mineral Engineering at U of T Engineering. Michael's innovative doctoral work on the use and design of cast steel yielding elements underlies the yielding connectors that distinguishes Cast Connex from competitors. And Carlos is Cast Connex's Principal Structural Engineer. He is recognized as a foremost expert in the design and use of steel castings in building construction. Carlos earned his Master's of Applied Science from U of T Engineering. Michael and Carlos, welcome to the podcast. Carlos de Oliveira 1:47 Thanks for having us. Michael Gray 1:48 Thank you. Chris Yip 1:48 Yeah, looking forward to our conversation. All right, so, so, so let's, let's hear about this, the U of T, the origin story. I just want to kind of go back to the beginning. My understanding you two are the same, same same team together and it was Michael persuaded Carlos, or Carlos persuaded Michael, which way it went to join the, to join U of T Engineering? Michael Gray 2:07 It was my fault. Chris Yip 2:09 It's your fault? Michael Gray 2:09 Yeah. Chris Yip 2:09 Oh, here we go. Michael Gray 2:10 Yeah. I was, actually, we were, I was a PEY student, and I met Carlos on co-op, and he was at the Waterloo co-op at the same company. I kind of poached him for U of T. Chris Yip 2:21 To come down, come down the 401 from Waterloo, and be here. Michael Gray 2:24 Exactly. Chris Yip 2:25 Okay. Michael Gray 2:25 Yeah. Well, seriously, he was looking at grad schools, and I was telling him about all the great profs at U of T, and he decided to come. And so he actually was a year ahead because of my PEY, and when I entered the master's program that became my PhD, Professors Packer and Christopoulous said, we've got this great student who's working on a project that we'd like to get you involved with and, yeah, it was Carlos. So it's kind of full circle that way, yeah. Chris Yip 2:51 Cool, cool. So it didn't take much to convince you. Carlos de Oliveira 2:53 Well, I mean, U of T is renowned, the Civil Engineering Department is renowned, you know, the professors, the laboratory, you know, I was particularly interested in structural steel design and construction and there were, you know, there were, and still are great professors with that focus. And so, you know, Michael brought that all to my attention at the time I was thinking about applying to schools in the United States. Chris Yip 3:20 Oh here we go. Come to North of the border. Carlos de Oliveira 3:22 And he said, yeah, you should, you know, really consider the University of Toronto and, you know, didn't look back. Chris Yip 3:27 It's interesting to think about how these connections build, right, this sort of fortuitous meetups and connection that you can, you can leverage. You're right. I mean, CivMin has really grown, and we've seen now, Constantine has an amazing project, you probably seen this new structural testing facility, which are just about to open soon. I mean, it's just amazing what the, how the faculties or, the departments actually undergoing these massive changes and renovations, really, to keep it at the forefront of civil engineering in particular. So the idea for Cast Connex came out of your time at U of T, now it's a big ongoing concern with lots of U of T Engineering alumni. So where did the idea come from? Carlos de Oliveira 4:09 Well, I really it started with our research and what we were doing. When I started my master's thesis, and Professors Jeff Packer and Constantine Christopoulous, they came to me with a potential project, and the idea was to leverage casting manufacturing to address seismic resistant bracing connections. As I was doing that work and studying that, how we might leverage castings to solve that problem, it became really evident that casting manufacturing had a lot to offer to steel, structural steel connections. And then, of course, as I was finishing up my master's work and getting ready to move on into the industry, Michael started his, what was started as a master's research and was a continuation of my work and eventually morphed into his doctoral work. And we had an opportunity to overlap in the start of his doctoral work at the end of my master's thesis. And it was really during that period that we discovered, or came to the realization, that a lot of the concepts that we were developing were rather novel and potentially patentable. And actually it was our thesis supervisors who suggested, you know, maybe we should consider filing a patent for some of these, these concepts in these ideas at that time, you know, I don't think either one of us had really even thought of that as an idea. So that's what we did, and we filed some provisional patents, and our first idea around those patents was that maybe we could take the technologies that we had developed during our research and maybe we could find some existing industry players that might be interested in licensing those technologies in. So, you know, that was our first kind of way of looking at how we would take our research and move it into the industry. And as we started having discussions with various players in the steel construction industry, a lot of them gave us the same feedback that it was. You have really good ideas, we think that they have merit, but we don't do steel castings, it's not really what we do. And we came to the realization that if, if we were going to take this idea and commercialize it, that we would have to do it ourselves. You know, ultimately, I went off and I I started working in the industry and, you know, we kept at, in the background, we kept kind of working out these ideas and concepts. Again, Michael is still really well connected, and here doing his PhD at U of T and actually it was, I think, Jeff Packer, who said to me, there's this great fellowship that you should apply for. It was the Heffernan Coast Deal Innovation Fellowship. And he said, what the fellowship provides is a little bit of funding if you're selected of course, it provides a little bit of funding to support those first year early activities in honing your business model and determining your path to commercialization for your research. And so, you know, Michael and I toiled away and wrote up an idea for what was really Cast Connex on paper for the first time, where we were trying to identify what is this business? How does it work? What does it what does it sell? And how are we going to manufacture the products that we're going to sell in an industry? What are the steps involved in developing and designing those products, testing them and receiving the validation necessary to actually put them into structural service. And so it was through that process, actually, where we started to crystallize on the idea of what Cast Connex could be. And I was fortunate enough to be selected for that fellowship, and ultimately that was the nudge that I think we needed snd I quit my day job, and we just started Cast Connex. Chris Yip 7:40 Right for our listeners, this was Heffernan and co. so it's Jerry Heffernan, longtime supporter of civil engineering, wonderful gentleman, and supported lots of initiatives inside civil so a number of alum owe a lot to Jerry and the family, sort of, for supporting civil engineering. It's awesome to hear about sort of that, that Canadian startup entity right that now has a kind of a big manufacturing presence, but then also that you want to expand and build a presence, get the name brand out. So, so the value proposition, lower cost, higher performance? Or how does it compare against welding? Carlos de Oliveira 8:19 Well, there's a huge range. We focus on performance benefits. So certainly, the ability for us to sculpt, shape in structural steel is very exciting from an architectural perspective. A lot of our work is for architecturally exposed connections. So these are the structural connections that will be visible in the finished building that the the aesthetic or the look of those connections form part of the architecture of the space or the building en masse. Our ability to sculpt steel is something that is very exciting to the design community from, like I said, from an architectural design perspective. So you know, walk into any airport, any big transit terminal, you see all of the structural steel, and you see these beautiful, not really industrial, but like beautiful, looking structural connections. Their their shaping is informed by the forces that flow through the connections. Like, chances are, you're looking at one of our projects, to be honest. You know, we are involved in anywhere. I don't where from three to five airport projects per year within North America and trying to expanding that, you know, more globally. That's one aspect of what we do so always structural. We're always holding up the buildings that we're in, but oftentimes architectural, but also from a performance perspective, our ability to shape steel and to put, put the steel in the optimal location from the flow forces through the connection means that we can produce connections that are lighter, stiffer, stronger than anything you could fabricate. You know, when you're fabricating steel, you're just cutting existing plates and welding them together, stitching together the connections, they're not a particularly efficient way of. Shaping a structural element. Our connections can look, you know, like the like the bones in your hand are shaped for the forces that they resist. And our connections can, can do that. And so we are able to make connections that are far more optimal on a material usage perspective, from a weight perspective, our connections can be lighter and yet stiffer than fabricated and alternative connections. And so there's opportunities there, from a structural perspective, from a performance perspective, to improve fatigue performance, for example, or seismic performance, to design components that can act like the crumple zone of a car. Like Michael's research work to absorb the energy impact from from an earthquake or from a blast, for example. So, so these are all abilities that that we can leverage and that we do leverage every day in our design and manufacturing work. Chris Yip 10:51 You're right, like, there's that, there's that amazing synergy now between design and what you can do if you can, like you said, model engineering forces and use that as part of your structure. It's like, okay, this is better than making like a standard square joint or something like that, right? That's fun. Because I want, I want building science and architecture much tighter connection with architecture and engineering, particular civil so this, this, this lends some credence to why I want, I want our two faculties to work more closely together. This would be awesome. All right, the MSG Sphere. This is pretty high profile, right? And super ambitious project. I didn't realize the connection to Cast Connex. I just knew the story of this giant sphere in Las Vegas so tell me about it. Michael Gray 11:39 Madison Square Garden had a very ambitious plan to build a NHL arena sized venue specifically designed for music performances, and so it has a spherical external LED screen that wraps the entire building, and you've seen it probably on social media. And then within that there's a building, and inside the building there's an almost spherical LED screen that wraps around the 18,000 seat auditorium. Behind the screen is probably the most advanced audio speaker system in the world, so they can pinpoint audio directly to every seat in the venue, so you get the most crystal clear audio you can hear. Our, the nature of our involvement is that when they were kind of conceiving of what the strategy would be to build these support structures for both the outside and eventually inside screens, they ran into the issue of trying to keep very tight tolerances because the screens are installed in panels, and if the panels get too close, you have positive interference, and if they get too far apart, you get like a black line. And so with our technology, we were able to help the constructability of that so it's not actually architecturally exposed although it's a really cool building. Our parts are very practical in that they help the design and construction so that those spheres could be built in the right spot, so that the LEDs would work properly. Chris Yip 13:06 So there would be, it would have been an impossible project to do without Cast Connex's involvement in a sense of like, what they wanted to do. They're like, we want to do this and the only people that could do this would be you guys. Carlos de Oliveira 13:17 It was interesting, because when we were assisting with the design team, as they were conceiving of the structural system, they presented our solution as an alternative to a conventionally fabricated connection. So the design was kind of fleshed out with both options. And what I found really interesting on this particular project is the contractors that were pursuing this project, and who had to deliver this structure with very tight tolerances. This is the biggest spherical structure in the world, and and it has to be constructed with extraordinarily tight tolerances. And they determined that just if they were going to try to fabricate these connections using their conventional means, where you're you know, very large welds, a lot of heat input, a lot of distortion and fabrication, each one of their connections, although they would try and make them identical, they would all be unique in their own special way. And all of these tolerances in this very large structure would kind of accumulate and create challenges from a construction perspective. So although the design originally offered two options, ultimately, it was the contractors on the project that said, we believe that the Cast Connex solution is the only solution for building this. Michael Gray 14:32 Pretty much every node in the steel frame around that sphere is a, is a Cast Connex connection. Chris Yip 14:37 So it just opened right? Michael Gray 14:40 In well, September, October, yeah. Chris Yip 14:43 Because I remember they were talking about, there was, like, a U2 concert and a bunch of stuff like that, that was there. So did you get to go the opening? Michael Gray 14:48 We didn't get to the opening, but we got, we sat a couple times, actually, yeah. Chris Yip 14:53 Nice. Michael Gray 14:54 And it was amazing. Chris Yip 14:55 Yeah, yeah. I've seen, I've seen, obviously, on social media see the views and you see what the concert looks like inside and so to hear that sort of Canadian engineering expertise and technology is now embedded in the largest spherical structure in the world, that's such a great story, right? So what's the next? What's the next big one for you guys? Then, I mean, you've got the largest sphere. Carlos de Oliveira 15:20 So we were we finished working on that project, and we were concerned like, what are we going to do next? What's what's next for us? And it just so happened timing wise, that as we were wrapping up that project, we got a call from some contractors that were working with NASA on the fabrication and construction of Mobile Launcher Two. So this is, this is part of the Artemis mission where they are building a new mobile launcher that will launch NASA's largest rockets, and will put people on the Moon and eventually on Mars. And so we're working on the design and construction of Mobile Launcher Two. Chris Yip 15:59 Wow. Michael Gray 16:00 Yeah, so to outdo the sphere, we had to go to space basically. There's nothing on earth that's better than the Sphere. Chris Yip 16:06 It'd be like they're gonna be next, you know, Cast Connex sort of next office will be on a lunar base, like sails on the moon and fabrication in space. I think that that'll be the next one to do. This is interesting, right? Because the, to see students, in a sense, right? You know, graduate students kind of rolling out a startup, taking that entrepreneurial track. It's something that we're really trying to emphasize with an engineering now we've got, I think the Hatchery would have been sort of around just when you guys are there too, right? Carlos de Oliveira 16:42 Yeah, I think it was after us. Chris Yip 16:43 Yeah, you would be like the early predecessors of it, right? This really worked well for Cast Connex. We should really build the hatchery. Michael Gray 16:49 He was like a stowaway at the innovations partnership, or whatever it is Chris Yip 16:53 Just like, hung out in the IPO Office. Michael Gray 16:55 There's a desk no one's using and I think that's the early hatchery. Chris Yip 16:59 There you go. There you go. Yeah, he was really in the nursery of the Hatchery, right? [laughs] But it is something that we're like, we're really promoting for our students, and we're seeing massive adoption now and interest right in this sort of startup space. Any advice that you guys have for our listeners about going down this route, Carlos de Oliveira 17:19 My one piece of advice would be, you shouldn't be doing it if you're looking for the quick buck. Starting a business, starting a commercial enterprise, is an extraordinarily large lift. It takes, it takes a village, you know. You have to surround yourself with the right people, the right guidance, the right mentors. You need the right kind of investors, and it is not for the faint of heart, and it is not easy. Everybody hears about the quick deal, the startup that within a year of doing business, is sold for many, many millions of dollars. Chris Yip 17:58 The unicorn. Carlos de Oliveira 17:59 Yeah, the unicorn. I mean, there's a reason they're called the unicorn, right? Because they almost never happen. You have to have a real passion and drive for what you're doing. And I think that's probably I would say what, what would set Michael and I apart from most is we're really passionate about what we do. We really believe in the technology that we're leveraging and our ability to solve challenges and to provide value for our customers, and that passion is what drives us every single day. We would never have been successful without that passion and that drive and that commitment. I mean, there was many years you joked like, when, when were you first profitable? It took many years. [laughs] It's like a long time, and it took a long time even to get our first revenue, let alone to the point where we would say that we were profitable and it's a long, hard climb, and you really have to be passionate about it. Chris Yip 18:58 One of the challenges is always sort of finding you know who your, who your funders are, in a sense, right? The friends and family deal and all that sort of stuff, and the VCs that will support you. But in your case, you have this combination of a challenge of, sort of, you've got the ideas and you can, I guess, and design the part, but then you've got to find someone to make it for you, right? And someone that you would qualify as being okay, you made this you're a good caster type thing, like, did you run into challenges there? There's like, okay, in order for this company to work, I have to find the right fabricator, in a sense, right to do this. Michael Gray 19:30 We definitely learned the hard way, working with different partners that maybe just weren't a great fit for what we were doing. And I think that's part of the time it takes to kind of get off the ground, but we had really good advice, like from Jerry Heffernan, actually, that was like his advice was to sell a little and learn a lot. And so by following that process, you know, we were able to kind of learn about the vendors that we were working with and find the ones who were really great, rather than just raising a huge amount of capital and dumping it all in the wrong place or spending it the wrong way. You know, we took it very incrementally. Chris Yip 19:30 Thank you so much for being on the podcast. Really appreciate it. This was fascinating to hear this entrepreneurial story and how it's grown and the impact you're having. Can't wait to see Mobile Launcher Two, and then there's gonna be a zoom in at some point, and you will have a logo that says Cast Connex on there, and you will see it launch. So thanks, Michael, thanks Carlos, for being here today. Carlos de Oliveira 20:34 Thanks very much for having us. Michael Gray 20:35 Thank you. You're welcome. Chris Yip 20:46 Thanks again for listening to Tell Me More: Coffee with Chris Yip. 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